Tag Archives: Roger Waters

Roger Waters’ Family Tree – The EL Cid connection

elcidFurthering my research into the family tree of Pink Floyd front-man Roger Waters, I discovered that his ancestor, Helen Paterson had a very interesting ancestry herself, leading to connections with royal families from Scotland, Wales, England, France and Spain if not more. To re-cap from my previous post, she married the Rev. William Morrice (1730-1809) on 6 December 1763, a daughter of the Rev. James Paterson (1702-1789) minister of Coull, and Jane/Jean Turing (1712-1784) who herself was a daughter of a minister, Walter Turing (Johnston, p.181). Helen died on 20 April 1817 aged 73 and had 17 children (Johnston, p.181).

One of them was Isabella who interestingly married a William Roger (Johnston, p.183), possibly of the same family as the one that her sister Jane Morrice, Roger Waters’ ancestor, married into, namely Rev. John Roger (Johnston, p.182). During my research into this post I discovered that two of Jane and John Roger’s children emigrated to commonwealth destinations; the Rev. John Morrice Roger was a Presbyterian minister in Canada[1] and Walter Roger passed away in New South Wales (Johnston, p.182). The latter was married and had two children. Their brother, Robert Roger (d. 1869), became an engineer and was Roger Waters’ great-great grandfather.

Three sons of William and Helen also departed to foreign climes. James (1745-1798) who practiced as a physician in Jamaica, and Robert (b. 1769) and David (b. 1775), as planters (Johnston, p.183). From the same source I discovered also that the three had two uncles living in Jamaica.[2] A patient trawl through some old genealogical books will reveal that we can go further back in history and discover some illustrious names that Helen Paterson was descended from.

Now, I’ve been down this path with my own family history research and part of my interest in researching this tree was finding whether I shared some ancestors with Roger Waters. Going back in time as much as I have I was confident that this would be the case. For this particular post I was keen to determine whether Rogers’ family history included some of my own ancestors in Spain[3]. The research took me back to the same historical periods that I have gone with my own family, which helped me cut back some research time. I hope to continue to write about these interesting historical characters in Waters’ family history in future posts. But in this instance I was particularly interested whether I could find proof that we both have a connection to Rodrigo Diaz de Bivar, otherwise known as El Cid. Some of you will know that the American actor, Charlton Heston, played the famous Spanish nobleman in the epic film of the same name released in 1961.

My research has revealed at least two lineages from Helen Paterson that eventually led to a connection with El Cid. One of her great-great grandmothers was Grizel Brodie who married Robert Dunbar[4] on the 7 September 1654 (Burke, p.596). Robert’s ancestry is rich with medieval Scottish kings[5] and will be the subject of a future post. Grizel was the daughter of Alexander Brodie[6] and Elizabeth Innes who were married on 28 October 1635 (Burke, p.596). Elizabeth died 12 August, 1640, but by then she had also produced a son, James (Burke, p.596). Her parents were Robert Innes and Grizel Stewart (Burke, p. 596) and this is where the research gets a little more exciting. Grizel Stewart turns out to be a great grandchild of King James V of Scotland! Here’s how.

Grizel’s parents were James Stewart[7] (nicknamed the bonny earl of Moray) and Elizabeth Stewart, the daughter of James Stewart, an illegitimate son of James V (Debrett, p.517)  by his well documented mistress Lady Margaret Erskine (Cheetham, p.59). The King’s son was created the 1st Earl of Moray and became a chief advisor for his half sister, Mary Queen of Scots (Meline, p. 42-43), the mother of James VI of Scotland who became James I of England in 1603. His wife was Agnes Keith[8], married on 8 February, 1562 (Knox, p.314[in footnote]) and I found her ancestry leads to James I of Scotland and Lady Joan Beaufort, and through Joan down to King Edward III of England. This means that there is a another connection to the Royal families of France and Spain, and therefore  a connection to El Cid too. So both husband and wife were descendants of El Cid. I could show how they are fully connected, and I will, but essentially because King Edward III of England was both their ancestor, the path to El Cid will be the same from this particular monarch. The direct line that I have traced goes through Edward III’s mother, the treacherous Isabella of France (1295-1358)[9].

So, if we look at James Stewart’s line first…

His paternal grandmother was Margaret Tudor, wife of King James IV of Scotland, and daughter of King Henry VII of England (Mortimer, p.169). Her Welsh ancestry will certainly lead to many notable figures who are included in the family trees of  both Waters and myself, and having Owen Tudor as an ancestor a future post will reveal the many connections that Walters’ has in Welsh history.

The period before Margaret Tudor’s father won the English crown on the field at Bosworth was quite a turbulent time in English history with as many episodes of intrigue, murder and plotting to fill an Agatha Christie novel. King Henry VII, Henry Tudor, claimed the throne in 1485 because of his ancestry to King Edward III, his

great-great-great-great grandfather,  who ruled England and Wales from 1327 to 1377 (Unwin, p.4). In fact it is generally known that Henry knew that he didn’t have much of a claim, but legitimised his action by claiming the throne through defeating the current King, Richard III in battle. However, it can be said that his wife Elizabeth (1466-1503) had a greater claim for the throne of England. By marrying Elizabeth, Henry strengthened his own eligibility. Two years previously, he had vowed to marry her, with the support of anti-Richard Yorkists, who hoped that Elizabeth would be Queen of England, and Henry her consort (Pendrill, p. 84). Her father was King Edward IV (1442-1483) and when he died, and with the disappearance of her younger brothers, Edward and Richard, she could have staked her claim to be Queen of England[10]. With the young princes out of the way, Richard, an uncle to Elizabeth, grabbed the throne and declared all the children of Edward IV illegitimate thus making them ineligible to be considered as heirs[11]. He consequently seized the throne and became King Richard III.

It was he was the one that lost the crown and his life that day on Bosworth Field; he is depicted by historians as a murderer of children and a conniving individual who manipulated events to make sure that he became King. It is with some irony that Henry Tudor, had to slay his future brother-in-law, then married Elizabeth, thus uniting the Houses of Lancaster and York and ending the devastating period in our history that we now designate as The Wars of the Roses.

His mother was Margaret Beaufort, the Countess of Richmond, his father Edmund Tudor, son of Owen Tudor and Catherine of Valois (Lehman, p.257-259) .  Her father was the 1st Duke of Somerset, John Beaufort (1403-1444) a grandson of John of Gaunt, 3rd son on King Edward III. At the death of the King, the English throne was passed to the only legitimate individual, Richard II, Edward’s grandson, who ruled from 1377 to 1399.[12] His untimely death at the hands of Henry Bolingbroke, his cousin, who then took the throne from him, produced a succession of troubled reigns, devastated by wars, legitimacy and economic problems which eventually bankrupted the country, until Henry Tudor came and restored order to the kingdom[13].

So, the ancestral line from James Stewart to Edward III is as follows:

James Stewart – King James V – Margaret Tudor – King Henry VII – Margaret Beaufort – John Beaufort – John Beaufort – John of Gaunt – Edward III

Now, let’s turn to Agnes Keith’s ancestry to Edward III…

Her parents were William Keith (died 1581) and Margaret Keith, the daughter of another William Keith, the younger (Almon, p.324). Agnes’s paternal grandfather was Lord Robert Keith who married Lady Elizabeth Douglas, the daughter of John Douglas, 2nd Earl of Morton and Janet Crichton (Burke, p.303). Robert and Elizabeth may have been 2nd cousins, but I didn’t find any proof of this[14]. John Douglas fought and was killed at the Battle of Flodden in 1513[15]. His parents were James Douglas, 1st Earl of Morton and Princess Joan of Scotland (c.1428-1486), daughter of James I of Scotland and Lady Joan of Beaufort (1404-1445)[16]. Joan was unfortunately afflicted with being deaf as well as not being able to talk. She was known as the muta domina [mute lady of Dalkeith] (Maxwell, p. 238).

Joan Beaufort was the daughter of John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset and Margaret Holland (French, p.148).  John was the son of John of Gaunt, 3rd son of Edward III of England. Here we arrive at a full circle to the ancestry of both James and Agnes[17].

To simplify, this is the ancestral line from Agnes Keith to Edward III:

Agnes Keith – William Keith – Robert Keith – John Douglas – Joan of Scotland – Lady Joan Beaufort – John Beaufort – John of Gaunt – Edward III

Let’s now have a look at the ancestral journey towards El Cid from King Edward III.

Edward’s bride was Philippa of Hainault, a province in modern day Belgium, south of what was then Flanders. Her parents were William I, Count of Hainault (Strickland [1848], p.173) and Joan of Valois (Edgar, p.75). Edward’s parents were Edward II (1284-1330) and Isabella of France (1295-1358), and she was notoriously involved in the deposition of her husband with the help of her lover Roger Mortimer (Haines, p. 190), and both later arranged the king to be murdered[18]. This Roger Mortimer was hanged at Tyburn for his role in the Edward II affair and was the son of my direct ancestor Sir Edmund de Mortimer (1251-1304) who was involved in the death of Llewelyn the Last, who perished in the Battle of Orewin Bridge on 11 December, 1282[19].

It is quite a sobering thought that one of my ancestors was responsible for the demise of Wales’ last Prince. The death of Llewelyn signalled the beginning of English domination in Wales under King Edward I.

Isabella’s parents were Phillip IV of France (1268-1314) and Joan I of Navarre[20]. Philip was known as ‘the fair’ (Philippe le Bel)[21] and after marrying Joan he became King Philip I of Navarre and Count of Champagne. He was responsible for the demise of The Knights Templar, of whom he was heavily in debt (Robertson, p. 132). In 1314, he ordered Jacques de Molay, the leader of the Templars, and Geoffroi de Charney[22] to be burned at the stake on an island in the middle of the River Seine in Paris (Demurger, p. 227). Before he died, de Molay (who has been rumoured by some to be the image left on the Shroud of Turin[23]) cursed those who passed sentence on him, Philip and Pope Clement V, and both were dead within the year, Philip died during a hunting expedition (Robinson, p. 473).

Joan’s parents were Henry I (c.1244-1274), nicknamed ‘the fat’ (Chepmell, p. 404), and Blanche of Artois (1248-1302), a daughter of Robert I of Artois and Matilda of Brabant (DeBacker, p. 245). Robert was a brother of King Louis IX of France and son of King Louis VIII and Blanche of Castile (1188-1252) (Newman, p. 120). Blanche was a daughter of King Alfonso VIII of Castile (1155-1214) and his wife Eleanor of England, daughter of King Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine (Swabey, p.97).

Joan, barely a year old when her father Henry I of Navarre died, found herself and her mother under the protection of the court of Philip III of France, where at the young age of 11 married the king’s son, the future Philip IV, and the following year, 1285, became Queen of France (Fegley, p.68). Her three sons would eventually be kings of France, and her daughter Isabella, Queen of England[24].

If I go back to Henry I of Navarre’s ancestry I found that his father was Theobald I of Navarre (1201-1263), the first Frenchman to rule over Navarre (Wikipedia), and his mother, Margaret of Bourbon. He was also known as Theobald IV of Champagne. His son Theobald V died young[25] which meant Henry became King of Navarre. Tragically, Henry’s infant son was dropped accidentally from the castle wall in 1283[26] which left Joan as heir to the throne of Navarre (Chepmell, p. 404).

Theobald III (1178-1201) ruled the region of Champagne and he inherited the Kingdom of Navarre when he married Blanca Sanchez (born c.1181), the daughter of Sancho VI and Sancha of Castile (Koch and Schoell, p.53). Blanca was a sister to

Berengaria, wife of King Richard I of England (Strickland [1841], p. 21) and to Sancho VII (O’Callaghan, p. 680). It is at this point when my ancestry joins that of Roger Waters’. His ancestor Sancho VI was the brother of Blanche of Navarre, my direct ancestor, and wife of Sancho III King of Castile and Toledo. Their father was Garcia Ramirez of Navarre (1099-1150) who was the husband of Marguerite l’Aigle (Daniell, p.55).

We are now only two generations from El Cid. Garcia’s parents were Ramiro Sanchez, Lord of Monzon and Christina Rodriguez (Burke [1900], p.193), the daughter of El Cid, Rodrigo Diaz de Bivar and Ximena Diaz, who were married in 1074[27] (Southey, p.6).

So, here is the ancestral line from King Edward III to El Cid:

Edward III-Isabella of France-Joan of Navarre-Henry I of Navarre-Theobald I of Navarre- Blanca Sanchez of Navarre- Sancho VI of Navarre-Garcia Ramirez of Navarre-Christina Rodriquez-Rodrigo Diaz de Bivar (El Cid)

Regarded as one of the most revered heroes of Spanish history, El Cid accumulated an impressive military career which comprised of periods of service with both the Christian armies of the kingdoms of Spain and the Muslim forces of the Moors. He pledged allegiance to Sancho II, the son of Ferdinand the Great, King of Castile and Leon, but when his eldest son, Sancho, was assassinated (allegedly organised by his brother Alfonso) he had no choice but to serve he who would become Alfonso VI. Rodrigo fought Alfonso’s battles but angered the King by fighting without permission in Grenada and spent some years in exile during which time he  fought with the Moors who in those times ruled Zaragosa, against the rulers of Aragon and Barcelona. It must be remembered that Spain at this time was split into various kingdoms, and that the southern parts of the country were controlled by the Moors.

But he returned to Alfonso when he desperately needed his services.  By this time El Cid had plans of his own. He formed his own army which comprised of both Christians and Moors. He no longer wished to fight for Kings but for himself, and prepared to take the city of Valencia, which was at the time was under Moorish control. He and his wife succeeded in taking over the city and keeping it in Christian hands until 1102. El Cid died on the 10 July, 1099. By all accounts he died from wounds in battle. When Valencia fell to the Moors in 1102, it is said that Ximena dressed the corpse of Rodrigo in his battle dress and rode it back to Burgos, his birthplace, where they both eventually were to lay under the cathedral of that city.

Footnotes
[1] Died at Peterborough, Ontario, January 1878, aged 70 (Johnston, 1894).
[2] John and James Paterson had already established medical practices in Jamaica long before the Morrice  brothers arrived (Johnston, 1894).
[3] I have outlined my ancestry to El Cid on a Facebook page and can be found here. A more detailed account will be posted on this blog.
[4] Robert was knighted by King Charles II of England.
[5] Ancestor includes Robert the Bruce.
[6] Alexander Brodie died in 1679 and wrote a diary which was published in 1740 (Burke (1838), p.596).
[7] The 2nd Earl of Moray. Murdered on 17th February, 1592  by George Gordon, 1st Marquess of Huntly (Almon, p.96).
[8] Daughter of the richest man in Scotland at the time, William Keith, 4th Earl Marischal (Burke, p.303 [1866]).
[9] Daughter of Philippe IV of France and Joan of Navarre (Strickland, p.231).
[10] Her brother, Edward became king for a mere 83 days and mysteriously disappeared along with another brother, Richard after they were sent to stay at the Tower of London, supposedly under the protection of their uncle Richard, Duke of Gloucester. After their supposed deaths, Elizabeth became Edward IV heir.
[11] One of his first acts as King of England was to make Parliament create a statute declaring Edward IV marriage legal again, thus restoring Elizabeth’s legitimacy.
[12] He became King because Edward III’s eldest son, Edward ‘The Black Prince’, predeceased his father. Richard married twice but did not produce an heir.
[13] Henry Tudor was often accused of taxing his people for wars that never occurred, and always with an agenda of accumulating wealth for the crown, by any means (Vickers and Bacon, xxvi).
[14] As far as my research can gather, Lord Robert Keith’s great-grandmother was Elizabeth Crichton, perhaps related to Elizabeth’s mother, Janet.
[15] As was Lord Robert Keith and his brother William (Burke, p. 303 [1866]).
[16] Dissertation Upon “Male Heirs” When Used as a Clause of Reminder in Grants of Scotch Peerages (Sinclair, p.98).
[17] James and Agnes’ common ancestors were John Beaufort and his wife Margaret Holland, the parents of John Beaufort (1st Duke of Somerset) [James] and Joan Beaufort [Agnes].
[18] Mortimer was accused of agreeing for Edward II to be suffocated (Haines, p.216).
[19] Reports suggest that he was lured by Edmund, his brother Roger and Hugo le Strange to a spot where he became isolated from the rest of his forces (Fryde, p.39).
[20] Agnes and Elizabeth Strickland, p.231-232 (1840).
[21] His half-sister Margaret was the 2nd wife of King Edward I of England.
[22] His nephew was to put the Turin Shroud on public display about 1355 (Danver, p.107).
[23] Oxley, p. 9.
[24] Louis X of France (1289-1316); Philip V of France (1293-1322); Charles IV (1294-1328),
[25]  He died childless whilst on Crusade in Sicily in 1270 (Chepmell, p. 404).
[26] His governor and nurse were throwing him to each other in play when the former missed the infant, and was killed himself from falling off the battlements trying in vain to catch him.
[27] Falk, p.470.
 

Bibliography

Genealogical Account of the descendants of James Young, merchant Burgess of Aberdeen and Rachel Cruickshank his wife, 1697-1893, William Johnston (1894).

A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland Vol.3, John Burke (1838).

Debrett’s Peerage of England, Scotland and Ireland revised, corrected and continued, John Debrett (1840).

Mary Queen of Scots and her latest English Historian: A Narrative of  the Principal Events in the Life of Mary Stuart, James Florant Meline (1872).

On The Trail of Mary Queen of Scots, J. Keith Cheetham(1999).

A Genealogical History of the Dormant: Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct …, Sir Bernard Burke (1866).

The Peerage of Scotland: a genealogical and historical of all the Peers of that Ancient Kingdom…, John Almon (1767).

The works of John Knox, Volume 2, Jon Knox (1848).

Lives of the Queens of England, from The Norman Conquest, Agnes and Elizabeth Strickland (1840).

A New History of England, from the earliest accounts of Britain to the ratification of the Peace of Versailles, 1763, Vol. 2,  Thomas Mortimer (1765).

The Making of the United Kingdom, Robert Unwin (1996).

The Wars of the Roses and Henry VII, Colin Pendrill (2004).

Lives of England’s Reigning and Consort Queens, H. Eugene Lehman (2011).

Dissertation Upon “Male Heirs” When Used as a Clause of Reminder in Grants of Scotch Peerages, Alexander Sinclair (1837).

A History of the House of Douglas: From the Earliest Times Down to the Legislative Union of England and Scotland, Sir Herbert Eustace Maxwell, Vol. 1 (1902).

Bacon: The History of the Reign of King Henry VII, ed. Brian Vickers (1998).

The Ancestry of Her Majesty Queen Victoria, and of His Royal Highness Prince Albert, George Russell French (1841).

Lives of the Queens of England, from the Norman Conquest, Volume 2, Agnes Strickland (1848).

Noble dames of ancient story, John George Edgar (1864).

King Edward II: His Life, His Reign, and Its Aftermath, 1284-1330, Roy Martin Haines (2003).

The True Christian Gospel, Orlando A. Robertson (2012).

The Last Templar: The Tragedy of Jacques de Molay,  Alain Demurger (2009).

The Challenge of the Shroud: History, Science and the Shroud of Turin,  Mark Oxley (2010).

Popular Controversies in World History,  ed. Steven L. Danver (2010).

Dungeon, Fire and Sword: The Knights Templar in the Crusades,  John J. Robinson (1992).

The Royal Families of England, Scotland, and Wales, with Their Descendants,  John Burke (1848).

The Revolutions of Europe: being an historical view of the European nations , Christophe Koch and Maximillian Samson Friedrich Schoell (1839).

History epitomised and contemporised; or, Historiæ Sententiæ,  E. M. Newman (1862).

Eleanor of Aquitaine, Courtly Love, and the Troubadours, Ffiona Swabey (2004).

Gathering Leaves,  D. M. DeBacker (2008).

Lives of the Queens of England, Vol.2,  Agnes Strickland (1841).

A History of Medieval Spain, Joseph F. O’Callaghan (1983).

The Tyranny and Fall of Edward II 1321-1326, Natalie Fryde (2004).

The Golden Spurs of Kortrijk: How the Knights of France Fell to the Foot Soldiers of Flanders in 1302,Randall Fegley (2002).

A History of Spain from the earliest times to the death of Ferdinand the Catholic Vol.1, Ulick Ralph Burke (1900).

From Norman Conquest to Magna Carta: England 1066–1215, Christopher Daniell (2013).

Chronicle of the Cid, R.Southey (1808).

A Psychoanalytic History of the Jews, Avner Falk (1996).

Roger Waters’ Family Tree, part 2

The Roger Family Line – Continuing the family tree of Pink Floyd’s Roger Waters.

In the previous post I dealt with Roger WatersWhyte family origins and in this second part I will write about his Roger family tree. Robert Whyte (born 1874, see part one) married Beatrix Louise Roger, born circa. 1884 at Egglescliffe, County Durham. I’m pretty sure that she died in the Newmarket district aged 88 in early 1972. Her death record states that she was born on 8th April 1883. Her parents were Robert Roger and Ann Agnes Gay and they were married in 1878 in Norfolk. Ann Agnes was born in North Wootton, located north of King’s Lynn.

Beatrice‘ siblings were Robert Gay Roger (1879), Helen M.A. Roger (circa. 1881), Ethel M. Roger (circa. 1886), Valentine Royston Roger (circa. 1890), Doris Mary Roger (1893) and David M. Roger (1899). All were born in Egglescliffe. In the 1901 Census their address was Yarm Road, Egglescliffe. Besides Beatrice, there are two persons which deserve a special mention, namely father Robert and son Valentine

Robert Roger

In the 1901 Census, Robert Roger‘s job was stated as a steam winch crane maker. Born in Stockton-on-Tees in 1853, his father was also named Robert, originally from Scotland, and he was an engineer and owner of a foundry. He may also have been an inventor.  In the London Gazette, dated 17 August, 1866, I found the following extract:

“To Robert Roger of Stockton-on-Tees, in the County of Durham, Engineer, for the invention of ‘improvements in steam travelling
cranes'”.

In 1871, Robert was a pupil at a private school in Tor Moham, Cornwall.

On an Ancestry.co.uk family tree, I found a possible birth date for Robert; born 13 March, 1814, but no Scottish birthplace. His parents  were John Roger, born 14 July, 1764 in Aberdeenshire, and Jane Morrice (1771-20 December, 1845). Their children were, Helen (1801-1876), William (1803-1870), Rachel (1805-1832), John Morrice (1807-1878), Walter (1810-1833) and Robert (1814-1869). The following were also revealed in the same family tree:

Jane Morrice

Parents – William Morrice (1730 – 22 January, 1809)
Helen Paterson (19 May, 1744 – 20 March, 1817)

Married – 6 December, 1763, Lumphanan, Aberdeenshire.
William Morrice

Parents – Robert Morice (1708 – 1772)
Margaret Duncan ( – 1775)

Married – 1729 [they had 20 children!]
Robert Morice

Parents – William Mores (1664 – )
Elsphet Mathie (1666 – )

Royston Valentine Roger

In the 1911 census, Royston was living at 51 King Henry’s Road, London with his sister Beatrice‘s father-in-law and his second wife, Caroline. If you recall from part 1, this address first appeared in the 1881 England Census as the home of Robert and Jeanie Whytethe parents of Robert and George Duncan Whyte (the missionary). This suggests to me that the in-laws had a good relationship. Royston is a 21 year old nurseryman born in Egglescliffe. He marries a Marian Cooper in the Battersea area, and have two sons, Anthony G Roger (Pickering, 1935) and Morice Roger (Ryedale, 1937). Nice to see the Morice name being carried through the ancestral line.

Royston died in the Ryedale district, Yorkshire in 1967, and Marian I think died in June 1978, Claro District, North Yorkshire. Her birth  is given as 2 September, 1900. Her son Morrice died in 2005, and his birth date is given as 14 May 1937.

Royston went into the nursery business in 1913 and it still thrives today, under the stewardship of Royston‘s grandson. Click here to
visit the website.

There is a common pattern in the Roger family tree for using a surname as a christian name. We have Roger Waters, Morice Roger, and Royston V Roger. Roger and Morice we know the history of. Royston was the surname of the wife of Richard Gay the great great grandfather of Roger Waters.

Gay Family Line

Ann Agnes Gay married Robert Roger, the son of the inventor and engineer of the same name. They married in Norfolk in 1878. Ann’s father was Richard Gay, a farmer born in North Wootton, Norfolk. He married Mary Royston on 13 December, 1842 at North Wootton. In 1871 Richard owned a farm of 1500 acres employing 60 men and 16 boys.

This was a huge concern and he probably owned one of the biggest farms  in Norfolk, or certainly in his immediate area.

To get further back I needed to consult the Family Search web site.

There is a christening date for Richard of 1 September, 1816 at North Wootton. His parents were Thomas and Lydia Gray. His siblings were Joshua (1822), Thomas (1818),  Thomas Paul (1820-1843),  Ann (c.1828).

Thomas Gay probably died in the December quarter of 1852;

Lydia in the June quarter of 1867, aged 74

On the Family Search site there is a christening record for a Lydia Gay of 12 January, 1793 in Heydon, Norfolk. This is north of Norwich and East of King’s Lynn. Her parents were Richard Gay and Ann Paul. This seems to fit nicely with the information about Thomas and Lydia I have already found. They name a son Thomas Paul Gay which makes sense if the Paul surname exists in the ancestry, which it does. It seems, therefore, that Richard and Lydia had the same surname, perhaps they were cousins. I can’t find a marriage date for them but my guess is that it was just before 1816.

Going further down this line we find a marriage for a Richard Gay and Ann Paul; they marry on 24 January 1792 at Stody, Norfolk. This is located north of Heydon.

Continuing with the search on the Family Search website, I found a sibling for Lydia,  Ann, christened at Heydon on 19 August, 1795.

There is a christening for an Ann Paul on 25 December, 1765 at Stody, Norfolk. Her parents? Thomas and Lydia Paul! So, now I can be fairly sure that I have the right ancestry. So, can I go further and find other generations? Well, I found a marriage record for a Thomas Paul and Lydia Goldsmith, married at Wells, Norfolk on 7 August, 1760. Could these be the Thomas and Lydia who were Ann Paul‘s parents? Wells, or Wells-by-the-sea as it is called, lies only a few miles north-west of Stody, so I think it’s entirely possible that I’m on the right track.

Children of Thomas Paul and Lydia Goldsmith

Lydia Paul christ. 6 August, 1761, Stody, Norfolk.

Elizabeth Paul christ. 25 March, 1764, Stody, Norfolk.

Ann Paul christ. 25 December, 1765, Stody, Norfolk (married Richard Gay, 24 January, 1792, Stody).

Frances Paul christ. 10 December, 1767, Stody, Norfolk.

Thomas Paul christ. 22 December, 1768, Stody, Norfolk.

If I am on the right lines, then I’m sure that Thomas Paul was christened at Stody on 4 April, 1736. His parents were Henery (Henry) and Elizabeth Paul. There is another Thomas Paul christened at Norwich on 13 January, 1730, parents being Thomas and Ann Paul. I’m tempted to say that the Stody one is the most obvious but one can never be sure in genealogy.

Looking at Lydia Goldsmith‘s ancestry we find a christening on 14 August, 1740 at Wells,

the same place as the wedding of Thomas Paul and Lydia Goldsmith in 1760 (see above). Her parents were William and Lydia Goldsmith. William possibly died either in 1762 or 1757 at Wells; two burial records exist on Family Search. Lydia probably died in January 1786 at Stody.

There is a marriage record for a William Goldsmith and Lydia Brereton on 21 September, 1736 at Stody.

Children of William Goldsmith and Lydia Brereton

John Goldsmith christ. 13 March, 1737, Wells, Norfolk.

Lydia Goldsmith christ. 14 August, 1740, Wells, Norfolk ( married Thomas Paul, 1760 at Wells)

Ann Goldsmith christ. 15 March, 1743, Wells, Norfolk.

Possible confirmation of this line being correct can be seen in the record I found of Lydia Brereton’s christening:

Lydia Maria Brereton christ. on 10 July, 1719 at Saxlingham, Norfolk (near Wells-by-the-sea). Parents were John and Martha Goldsmith.

I am prepared to accept that this may not be right, but I thought I’d include it anyway. The age difference between Lydia and William is a whopping 19 years if the christening dates are taken as approximate year of births. It may well be that Lydia was christened a period of years after her birth; also her parents were Goldsmiths – was she born to Martha before a marriage to John Goldsmith? An easier explanation would be that it is completely wrong!

A possible christening for William Goldsmith is found on Family Search:

Will Gouldsmith christ. 7 April, 1700, Wells, Norfolk. His parents were John and Elizabeth Goldsmith.

This is as far as I can go with this line of ancestry.

If we go back to the christening of Thomas Paul in 1736, I stuck my neck out by plumping for his parents to be Henery and Elizabeth Paul. There are two possible marriages for a Henry Paul and Elizabeth; 1714 at Aylmerton and 1722 at Necton or Pockthorpe.

Necton and Pockthorpe are miles away from Stody or Wells. Aylmerton, on the other hand, is along the coastline to the east of Wells-by-the-sea. But I can’t be sure to make even a good guess.

I did find a set of christenings for a Henry and Elizabeth Paul in Stody.

John christ. 25 December, 1726, Stody.

Mary christ. 25 October, 1728, Stody.

Elizabeth christ. 4 April, 1730, Stody.

Frances christ. 2 January, 1733, Stody.

Ledy (?) christ. 29 January, 1735, Stody.

Thomas christ. 4 April, 1736, Stody.

Ann christ. 18 January, 1738, Stody.

Anne christ. 18 January, 1739, Stody.

Finding a Frances in this set could be a determining factor to being on the right track, though not a conclusive one. Thomas Paul had a sister named Frances, who might have been named after a grandmother. Unfortunately I was not able to find this out because I could not locate any further records.

Lincolnshire Roots

If we return to Richard Gay and his wife Mary Royston, we find that she was born in Leverington, Cambridgeshire.

Agnes Ann, Roger Waters‘ great grandmother, aged 3, daughter of Richard and Mary is on this census listing.

Children of Richard Gay and Mary Royston

Mary (1845), Thomas William (1846), Louisa (1848), Matilda Miriam (1850), Lydia Ann (1855), Agnes Anne (1857).

Mary Royston was the daughter of William Royston and Miriam Blackbourne, born on 8 December, 1816 at Leverington, Cambridgeshire. Her
two brothers, George and Henry were also born in Leverington.

Her parents were married on 20 April 1809 at
Threekingham, Lincolnshire. William Royston was born in Edenham, Lincolnshire and Miriam at Threekingham.

Miriam Blackbourne was christened at Threekingham cum Stow, Lincolnshire on 17 September, 1786; her parents were Henry and
Ann Blackbourne .

Thomas Royston married Lucy Thorp on 20 February, 1769 at Ingoldsby, Lincolnshire.

Children of William Royston and Miriam Blackbourne

William born 20 July, 1813, Walsoken, Norfolk.

Sarah born 13 November, 1813, Walsoken, Norfolk.
(confusing dates here – possibly one is a christening date)

George born 18 May, 1815, Leverington, Cambridgeshire.

Mary born 8 December, 1816, Leverington, Cambridgeshire.

Henry born 11 May, 1818, Leverington, Cambridgeshire.

Lucy born 21 May, 1821, North Wootton, Norfolk.

Cuthbert born 11 February, 1823, North Wootton, Norfolk.

This family can be verified through the census records.

William Royston (65) Farmer Not born in county.

Miriam Royston (50) Not born in county.

William Royston (30) Born in county.

Sarah Royston (25) Born in county.

Mary Royston (20) Not born in county.

Richard Royston (20) Not born in county.

Lucy Royston (20) Born in county.

Wootton Green

As usual the 1841 census is not as accurate with ages as other census. If we move to the 1851 census, we find William and Miriam still alive and living at North Wootton. Their eldest daughter Sarah is also living there and her birthplace is confirmed as Walsoken. There is also a grandaughter named Lucy, 5 years old, possible Sarah‘s daughter.

So, who were William Royston’s parents?

I found a christening for him at Edenham, Lincolnshire on 3 February, 1771; parents were Thomas and Lucy Royston.

Children of Thomas and Lucy Thorp

Mary christ. 29 October, 1769 Edenham, Lincolnshire.

William christ. 3 February, 1771 Edenham, Lincolnshire.

Thomas christ. 23 December, 1772 Edenham, Lincolnshire.

James christ. 2 January, 1775 Edenham, Lincolnshire.

Sarah christ. 4 January, 1777 Edenham, Lincolnshire.

George christ. 10 April, 1782 Edenham, Lincolnshire.

Miriam Blackbourne siblings (as found on Family Search) were Ann, christ. 22 August, 1779 (died 2 July, 1782); Henry, christ. 18 February, 1781 (died 9 July 1782); Ann, christ. 25 January, 1784; and Miriam (Roger Waters‘ great great great great grandmother), christ. 17 September, 1786. The deaths of Ann and Henry being so close suggests that they died from whatever disease that was going around the area. But Miriam survived.

Who were Miriam’s parents?

Seems to me that they were Henry Blackbourne and Ann German. I found a marriage at Threekingham cum Stow on 15 September, 1778. I couldn’t go any further because there are two Ann German christenings in 1754, but the one that stands out is this one:

Ann German christ. 21 January, 1754, Spanby, Lincolnshire. This looks like the next village to Threekingham.

Parents were John and Ann German.

Lucy Thorp, as far as I can gather, was christened on 29 July 1746 at Great Ponton, Lincolnshire, which is a few miles east of Ingoldsby. Her father was Henry Thorp.

It is difficult to affirm who was Thomas Royston‘s parents. There are two possibilities.

Thomas Royston christ. 16 August, 1735 Edenham. Parents were William and Mary Royston.

Thomas Royston christ. 13 July, 1740 Edenham. Parents were Wlliam and Mary Royston.

Notice that Thomas and Lucy (above) named their first two children Mary and William! So that’s the end of the line for me.

It’s always good to find something interesting about someone’s ancestry after such a lot of researching . Even though I couldn’t find a lot on his father’s side, which I was looking forward to looking into, I was glad I was able to find several generations of Roger Waters’ maternal line. What really pleased me was the diverse locations; Durham, Norfolk and Lincolnshire.

Roger Waters Family Tree – Part 1

Roger WatersContinuing on my quest to find out more about the family histories of well known figures I have decided to research the family trees of the members of Pink Floyd, whose music I have appreciated and enjoyed for many years. The origins of the group go back, unbelievably, to 1963 but the Pink Floyd that most of us recognize today have been making music since 1965. They release their debut album ‘ The Piper at the Gates of Dawn’ in 1967. They rapidly became one the most influential acts of the 1970’s, kings of the progressive music genre, and one of the most spectacular live acts ever.

The first member to get the treatment is Roger Waters, one of the founder members, vocalist, bass player and recognized leader of Pink Floyd from 1969 to 1985, though Dave Gilmour could argue otherwise! Waters mostly wrote the lyrics for the band in this period, giving the band a distinctive edge to their music. The last two albums he was involved with were arguably the band’s most poignant efforts, especially for Walters because of their autobiographical nature. ‘The Wall’ was a journey that encapsulated Waters’ personal feelings of
abandonment and isolation, drawing much from his experiences growing up and finding that isolation can happen as he experienced adulthood, while ‘The Final Cut’ was Waters homage to his father Eric who died in Italy while serving as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Royal Fusilliers. Originally a conscientious objector (Eric had been driving ambulances during the Blitz at this time) eventually
decided to join up. Waters believed that his father and all those who lost their lives in the war were betrayed because they believed that they were fighting to end the need for countries to go to war ever again. So the timing of the album coming out in the same year as Margaret Thatcher declared war on Argentina over The Falkland Islands provided the opportunity for Walters to make a point about the futility of war. As we will see, Eric was not the only member of his family tragically cut down in his prime.

George Roger Waters was born on 6th September, 1943 at Great Bookham, Surrey. His parents were the aforementioned Eric Fletcher Waters and Mary D Whyte, who were married in the Watford area in the beginning of 1941. Later that year a son was born to them, John D Waters, born in the Hendon area, older brother to Roger. I have speculated what the ‘D’ stood for ‘Duncan’, which I found later from the Whyte family.

In this post I will discuss the Whyte family and in my next the Roger family.

Paternal Family History

Eric Fletcher Waters was born in 1914 at a place called Copley in the county of Durham. Though I have not been able to see his birth record, I am confident that this is true because both his parents’ families are recorded here on the 1911 Census of England. He died on the Italian war front at Cassino on 18 February 1944. His body apparently has never been found. After his death Mary and her two sons moved to Cambridge. She died fairly recently in 2009 aged 96. Eric’s parents were George Henry Waters and Mary Elizabeth Fletcher, and they married in the Auckland Registration District. A quick check on Google maps shows both Copley and Lymesack and Softley were places (I have no idea if they are villages or small towns) located with this district, and are very near to each other, just by a place called Butterknowle. George’s parents are recorded at Lymesack and Softley on the 1911 Census.

William Waters aged 57 born in Sharforth, Yorkshire.
Mary Waters aged 52 born Lymesack and Softley.
George Henry Waters aged 21 born Lymesack and Softley.
Lizzie Jane Waters aged 16 born Lymesack and Softley.
Fred Waters aged 12 born Lymesack and Softley.
Gordon Waters aged 9 born Lymesack and Softley.

Residence: Post Office, Copley, Butterknowle.

William is recorded as a bootmaker dealer, and George a coal miner.

In 1911, Eric’s intended, Mary Elizabeth Fletcher, was tricky to track down and because of this I could not research her ancestry. There is no point assuming with family history. It has to be accurate and backed up with evidence. As I am only relying on internet databases and authentic family trees submissions, I will not write about family history relying on assumption with my research. I will, however, record my hunches and probabilities, but I will not continue any lines of inquiry based on assumption.

Now, I did not research the Fletcher line because of the reasons stated above. I did find a Mary E Fletcher that MAY be Eric’s wife on the 1911 Census that could be her. I found many Mary E Fletcher’s in the North East and unfortunately I can’t be sure which one is the correct Mary. So ends the research on her line. But the one I think is her, I have a strong hunch that it may be a Mary E Fletcher
working as a housemaid at a place called Foxleigh, Copley, aged 19, for a James Beattie, who was a GP, and unmarried. Curiously, there is another Mary Fletcher (with a middle initial which is possibly an F) aged 45, single, and a housekeeper to Dr Beattie. Are they related? Mother and daughter? They are both born at a place called Hunwick, County Durham. This also is not far from Copley, where her future husband hails from. Unfortunately, the handwriting on this entry is quite bad, quite a thick fountain pen was used to fill in the form. Typical GP!

George Henry Waters died on the 14 September 1916, aged just 26. He was a sapper for the Royal Engineers, attached to the tunneling division, no doubt because of his experience as a coal miner.

To make the tunnels safer and quicker to deploy, the British Army enlisted experienced coal miners, many outside their nominal recruitment policy. The desperate need for skilled men saw notices requesting volunteer tunnellers posted in collieries, mineral mines and quarries across South Wales, Scotland and the Northeast of England covering Derbyshire, County Durham,[8] Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire. In addition, specialist tin miners were also recruited from the Cornish mines mainly joining the 251st Company RE. To
attract the tin miners, a per diem of six shillings a day was offered to underground miners, which was around double to that was being
paid in the mines.

The mining assistants who acted as ‘beasts of burden’ were often made up of “Bantams”, (soldiers of below average height who had been
rejected from regular units because they did not meet the height requirements). Upon the declaration of war in August 1914, William
Hackett applied and was turned down three times at the age of 41 by the York and Lancaster Regiment. On 25 October 1915, despite
having been diagnosed with a heart condition, he was enlisted and sent for two weeks basic training at Chatham, joining 172 Tunnelling
Company
[Wikipedia]

I came across a strange coincidence when I found George’s details on the War Graves Commission web site. Another George Henry Waters, a Corporal with the Leicestershire Regiment, died the following day!

So, this is as far as I go with the Waters line and their associated surnames. There are family trees on the Ancestry site if anyone wishes to find out more on the generations. It is a real shame because I would have liked to explore the Fletcher ancestry, but I would have to look at the marriage certificate to get a clue who Mary’s father was. However, if I have got the correct census entry it may be that Mary was illegitimate and the information on the certificate would not be helpful after all. I tried to find if any other researchers had been successful in finding Mary’s ancestry and I was surprised to find that there wasn’t any. So, it’s therefore a problematic research project for others as well, which some cases can be at times.

Maternal Family History

Roger Waters’ maternal grandparents were Robert Whyte and Beatrix Louisa Roger, who in 1911 were living at 15 Templars Avenue, Golders
Green. What I find interesting is that Roger Waters used his middle name,as his christian name, which originally came from his grandmother’s surname.

Whyte Family History

Robert Whyte was born on 27 December, 1874 at Hampstead, London, the son of another Robert Whyte, a wholesale warehouseman and Jeanie
Whyte, married on 25 September, 1867 at Greenwich. The senior Robert married again after losing Jeanie, at the relatively young age of
41, in early 1885. His second wife was Caroline Sarah Bennett. The children he had with Jeanie were Jessie Duncan (1871), Robert
(1874. grandfather to Roger Waters), George Duncan Whyte (1879) and William (1881). Older sibling Jessie was residing with her brother
Robert and his wife Beatrix on the night the 1911 census was taken (2-3 April, 1911), and she was a secretary at the University of
London. I also found her on a shipping passenger manifest on the ship M.S. Marnix Van St. Aldegonde, arriving at Southampton on 7
July, 1931. I wonder if she was coming back from a visit to her younger brother George?

George Duncan Whyte qualified as a medical practitioner in 1900, qualifying at Edinburgh on 24 August of that year. He is listed on The Medical Register for 1903 as living at 51 King Henry’s Road, Hampstead, the family home as stated in both of the census of 1881 and 1891. When the register re-appears in 1907 he is listed as a doctor at Swatow, China. It is a place just up the coast from Hong
Kong. In fact all the registers he appears in until 1925 has his residence at Swatow, now known as Shantou I believe. It turns out he volunteered to become a missionary for the English Presbyterian Foreign Mission in 1902, and I found a passenger manifest that he travelled back to China on September 29, 1923, on a ship called the Atsuta Maru, a ship that was bound for Japan, but he would disembark at Hong Kong. He barely made it. Some months before he became seriously ill and had to travel back to England for treatment for a condition called Sprue. Today this is called Celiac Sprue, a condition affecting the small intestine, through eating gluten based products. Despite not totally fit to return to his duties, he embarked on the Atsuta Maru and reached Honk Kong in a desperate condition and died there on 25 November, 1923.

His obituary can be found here.

It appears he was married. There is an entry in the FreeBMD index of a George Duncan Whyte marrying a Florence A McCaubrey in late 1914. When I found his obituary there was no mention of a wife, so I thought I must have seen a different George in the BMD. But I tracked down a copy of the China Mission Year Book, published in 1912, which stated that he had a wife. This contradicts the BMD record of a marriage in 1914; I can not find a marriage before this date.

Going back to Robert Whyte and Jeanie Whyte, I could not link them into the same family. Sometimes I come across cousins marrying but I doubt this  is the case here. Jeanie Whyte was born at Aldagate in 1843 (according to a family tree on Ancestry) and her marriage record shows that her father was a Robert Whyte, a merchant. He died 7 December, 1869. He was born in Scotland in 1810, and he and his wife Agnes were married in Scotland, probably Ayr. In the 1861 census for Lee, Kent, Robert Whyte states that he was a colonial merchant, which sounds quite exotic. I wonder if he travelled to distant lands as his grandchildren did?

Robert Whyte’s (Jeanie’s husband) father was Thomas Whyte, also a warehouseman, and that is all I can find about him. I did not find him in earlier census, which can happen now and again. But Jeanie’s family tree is available to see on Ancestry.

Parents of Jeanie: Robert Whyte (1810-1869)
Agnes Anderson (1808-1892)

Parents of Agnes: John Anderson (1762-1818)
Jean Paterson (1768-1856)

Parents of Robert (1810-1869): Robert Whyte (3 Apr. 1777-1851)
Agnes Brysson (1786-1847)
(Married 1806, Edinburgh)

Parents of Robert (1777-1851): James Whyt (25 Oct.1717-1791)
Mary Maiben (1740-?)
(Married 13 July, 1758)

Parents of James: William Whyt (1678-?)
Jonet Role

Parents of Mary Maiben: William Maiben (1697, Stirling-8 July, 1748, Stirling)
Elizabeth Don (1698-?)
(Married, 1719)

Parents of William Maiben: Robert Raymond Maiben (1650-?)
Jean Johnstone (1651-1680)

Parents of Robert: John Maiben
Ellen

This is part one of my research into Roger Waters family tree. It has yielded a lot of interesting names, and a lot of information. My next post will be on the Roger family line and the associated families they married into.